Jim Pollock Question and Answer Main Page
JIM POLLOCK INTERVIEW (copyright) Jim Pollock
3/13/98
Interview questions by Graduate Student at
University of Miami, Florida, for a class project/paper
Questions revolve around the subject of Jim Pollock's experience as an US Army Combat Artist in Vietnam
Q: WERE YOU AWARE OF THE PROGRAM BEFORE YOU SAW THE ARTICLE IN '"'PACIFIC STARS AND STRIPES'"' OR THAT FELLOW SDSU GRADUATE HARVEY DUNN HAD COVERED WWI AS A COMBAT ARTIST?
POLLOCK: I first became aware of the Vietnam Combat Art Program through an acquaintance at Camp Ames, the base I was stationed at in Korea. Working in the Post office (APO 96321) I had contact with almost everyone on base. One day a soldier by the name of Sgt. Brooks dropped off the STARS AND STRIPE article. He said, '"'Pollock, I hear you are an artist and you might be interested in this.'"' I was and have been ever grateful to him for bringing the program to my attention.
Immediately I knew the significance and scope of the program because of my familiarity with fellow South Dakotan Harvey Dunn was commissioned and sent to Europe to record activities through his art of the American Expeditionary Forces of World War I.
Harvey Dunn also attended South Dakota State University, in Brookings, SD as I had. He was from a small town called Manchester, SD. The Art Harvey Dunn produced for the Army went into the Smithsonian Institution, which at that time was custodian of the Army historical property and art. Harvey Dunn also was a well known illustrator and did work for magazines such as the SATURDAY EVENING POST. A significant body of his work eventually found a home at SDSU. Some of the pieces were war art. These must have been pieces he did after his return to civilian life. At any rate SDSU had many of these pictures at the time I was attending SDSU (1961-1965) hanging in the Student Union. Many times as I was studying I would be distracted from my studies to look at his paintings that surrounded me. So, from this experience I understood early the significance of the artists role in recording historical events such as war.
In many ways Harvey Dunn was a role model for the experience that I went through in Vietnam.
I was much younger and had much less experience as an artist than Harvey Dunn, I did not try to emulate is artistic style, but by being exposed to his art and what he did during World War I helped prepare the way for me to record my account of the my experiences in Vietnam.
Compared to Harvey Dunn I was very young when I was a soldier artist. My art was not fully developed. In many ways it might be considered rough around the edges, but it was honest and I portrayed what I experienced. This comes through, I believe, to the viewers, especially veterans who also experienced Vietnam.
Q. WHAT WORKS OR KINDS OF WORK DID YOU SUBMIT IN THE SELECTION PROCESS?
POLLOCK: Circular 28-30 details such requirements (excerpts):
Two sketches of military subjects including figures, no larger than 8 x 10.5 inches. Recent work in the original (not copies) is preferable.
Three color photographs . . . of paintings or other artwork on any subject.
I can remember having to do two sketches of military subjects to meet the requirements. I did not have a large body of work since I was so young. I had my family send some slides I had take of work I had done while in college and I did the original sketches in Korea.
Q: WHY DID YOU WISH TO GO TO VIETNAM AND CAPTURE THE WAR RATHER THAN CONTINUE YOUR POST AS POSTAL CLERK?
POLLOCK: Being familiar with what Harvey Dunn had done in World War I, immediately upon reading the article wanted to use what art skills I had at the time to record events in Vietnam. For an artist I viewed this as an exciting opportunity to make a contribution to history.
I had been drafted into the army and was serving as a postal clerk with the 1st Base Post Office, 8th Army at Camp Ames in South Korea. Some of my friends thought I was not being rational volunteering to go to Vietnam when I had a safe assignment in Korea. I knew there was a certain amount of personal risk in going to Vietnam, I also knew the Army's soldier art program was something I wanted to participate in.
Some worthwhile things in life are not risk free. On the prairies of South Dakota one can, by surprise, encounter and be bit by a rattlesnake. I would not think of missing the experience of walking across the prairies of South Dakota for fear of being bit by a poisonous snake. For similar reasons I would not forsake an opportunity to participate in the Vietnam Combat Art Program, I was willing to take the necessary risks.
WAS IT EXPLAINED TO YOU THAT YOU MIGHT BE PUT IN DANGEROUS SITUATIONS OR DID PERSONNEL FROM THE CHIEF OF MILITARY HISTORY OFFICE EXPRESS THAT YOU WOULD NOT BE PLACED IN POSITIONS WHICH MIGHT COMPROMISE YOUR SAFETY?
POLLOCK: The risks were explained. We were asked not '"'to place ourselves in danger needlessly.'"' Our assignments were pretty much left up to us. We were given suggestions of units to visit, but for the most part we were encouraged to express ourselves freely and with any art style and subject we wished. There were broad written guidelines found in Standard Operating Procedure for the Combat Artist Program (HCSS SOP No. 424 found on my web site): '"'Portraits are prohibited. As historical records, it is important that subject matter of the artwork be recognizable. However each soldier artist will be permitted freedom to depict the subject in his own way.'"'
We had open travel orders while in Vietnam, which meant we could pick the area we wished to visit.
Normally while visiting a unit we would stay from 1-4 days and do whatever they were doing. If they were tramping through rice paddies and jungle, that is what we did. I have estimated that we had visited 52 units and traveled 3600 mile. That is a lot of traveling in a small country like Vietnam.
My fist wakeup call was my first trip to the field. En route to Vietnam I had a layover in Japan and learned my flight to Vietnam would not be available for another week. So, when I arrived in Vietnam I was already a week late and missed out on any orientation that was given to other artists. Headquarters suggested a visit to the 196th Light Infantry Brigade, which was conducting a jungle excursion. I had just came from a comparatively plush base in Korea. I had missed my orientation sessions and all of a sudden I was heading out into the field in a meal chopper. As we hovered over a rice paddy, I was told this is where I get off.It was the middle of the jungle. I didn't know what to expect. The first Lieutenant came running over and welcomed me to the unit. '"'Our conveniences aren't very good, but our hospitality is,'"' he said.
A few hours later the sky darkened and everybody was digging trenches and pitching makeshift tents. I used a poncho for a tent and dug a trench around it. Everything I had got soaked my first night out, but I was learning fast.
From this experience I learned to carry my sketchbooks in plastic bags to keep them dry.
The Vietnam Combat Art Program was divided into two distinct legs. The first was gathering information, sketches etc. in Vietnam. During the second leg we went to Hawaii, to a more hospitable environment and were free to concentrate on doing finished art from sketches and other resources we had gathered while in Vietnam. From Hawaii all of our work was packed up and sent to the Center of Military History in Washington, D.C for their permanent archives.
Q: WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE, IF ANY, BETWEEN AN ARTIST COVERAGE OF THE WAR AND THE PHOTOGRAPHERS? COULD THE ARMY HAVE HANDED YOU CAMERAS INSTEAD OF ART SUPPLIES AND OBTAINED SIMILAR RESULTS?
POLLOCK: The question you ask about the difference between an artists coverage of the war and a photographers is frequently asked. As an artist, it was easier for me to portray the spirit of the moment through art because I could edit or incorporate into the artwork feelings gathered and interpreted by senses that go beyond the strict and limiting visual image produced by a camera.
In 1991 the Center of Military History put out a publication called PORTRAIT OF AN ARMY, edited by General Gordon R. Sullivan, U.S. Army Chief of Staff and Marylou Gjernes, Army Art curator, in which the subject of artwork versus camera images is addressed. If might quote a couple of passages from the book:
'"'Long before the advent of instant full-color photography or hand-held video cameras, artists were creating visual images of life. They drew on their skill and feelings to create images that would allow others to share their experience. Despite technological advances, art, in its traditional sense, continues to be invaluable in portraying a significant or historic event. The Army thus places great value on this special record of its history.'"' Gordon R. Sullivan, General, United States Army Chief of Staff
Another quote from the book: '"'For over forty years the United States Army has maintained a collection of military art as a part of its continuing effort to preserve a visual record of its experiences in peace and war. In a somewhat paradoxical sense, art has now taken on an even more important role in that effort because of the proliferation of other visual recording techniques, such as photography, motion pictures, television, and video tape. These technologies isolate a moment and capture it as a partial history of the event taking place. They provide an exact image of what the camera sees. But these isolated images can have a distorting effect; they can overwhelm the understanding by their sheer number and often dry exactitude. The particular value of art, by contrast, is the opportunity it gives to a skilled artist to go beyond that momentary image locked in time to create a composite one that reflects the larger context of the situation, including its emotional tone. A photographer stops the action to record an image and requires many individual images frozen in time to depict a sequence of events; the artist takes what he sees, hears, smells, and feels and blends it into a picture that conveys emotion and action.'"'--End of quote.
You may be surprised to learn that the Army did issue us a camera. It was a Kodak instamatic, don't remember the exact model. We carried these cameras and took photos for reference. The problem our team had with using cameras was getting film developed in a timely manner.
We did use photos we took for reference, but the sketches, preliminaries and memory were the primary resource for finished work. I remember when we packed up and shipped our work we had done in Vietnam to Hawaii, I insisted on hand carrying my sketchbooks to insure I would have them for reference when I arrived in Hawaii.
Carrying sketchbooks in the field in Vietnam was not problem free. It rained a lot in Vietnam, and keeping sketchbooks dry was a real challenge. When carrying my sketchbook in the field I would wrap it in plastic to protect them from becoming soiled. Most of the sketching I did in the field was done with Rapidograph pens, using waterproof india ink, or with pencil.
HALL: You pointed out that the Army's Vietnam Combat Art Program was unique because it selected qualified artists from among its own ranks. You also responded in one of your previous answers that you had not fully developed a style, that it was still rough but very honest. I consider that one of the benefits of hiring soldiers rather than professional civilian artists to cover the war.
Q: DO YOU THINK THIS BRUTAL HONESTY COULD HAVE BEEN ATTAINED (OR HAS BEEN ATTAINED IN THE PAST) BY CIVILIAN COMBAT ARTISTS, OR IS THIS THE PRIME BENEFIT OF HIRING QUALIFIED SOLDIERS AS ARTISTS?
POLLOCK: By all means, civilian artists can and have captured the essence soldiers at war. One the benefits of using soldier artists is that they may be familiar with and depict a point of view overlooked by persons not living in a military environment.
HALL: In my research of this topic I have come across a person (not a combat artist) that compared the program to the Army's buying propaganda, and said that when artists receive money as salary they may lose objectivity.
Q: HOW WOULD YOU RESPOND TO THIS AS AN ARTIST? HOW ABOUT FROM THE POINT OF VIEW OF AN ARMY SOLDIER?
POLLOCK: I would like to put to rest the idea that the program was a propaganda project. This is not the first time I have encountered this argument. During the Vietnam War, the Army's Vietnam Combat Art Program was not a propaganda tool. From my experience I believe the Army was sincere in allowing such a program to exist for historical reason. There may have been participants who leaned this way or that, but it was definitely not because someone was orchestrating things.
Let me point out that during the Vietnam War, the Combat Art Program was instigated and developed by civilians. Artists assigned to Combat Artist Teams in Vietnam were chosen by civilians on a competitive basis.
Eugenia Nowlin and Marian McNaughton envisioned and started the Army's Vietnam Combat Art Program. Eugenia Nowlin was a civilian, and Director of the Army Arts and Crafts. Marian McNaughton, also a civilian, was Curator for the Center of Military History art at the time. The two of them convinced the army they needed the program for historical purposes.
There is another curious thing about the Vietnam War. The draft was still in place and a conscripted military is much different than a mercenary military, which is essentially what we have today. In general, draftees were not fond of being in the military. Military service was forced on them by society. In my opinion based my experience, most draftees would not willingly become part of a military propaganda machine. Most artists chosen to participate in the Vietnam Combat Art Program were not career soldiers.
The conscription issue is really another subject, but I believe this country did itself wrong when it went to an all voluntary army. A conscripted military has two positive features that have been overlooked. Drafting civilians into the army educated and helped them better understand how government works (or doesn't work) from the inside. Also, when civilians were drafted they were skeptical and tended to keep an eye on how the military is behaving from inside the organization.
HALL: When I read that artists were transported to Hawaii to finish their paintings that sounded pretty incredible.
Q: WHAT WERE YOUR EXPERIENCES IN HAWAII? WAS THE ATMOSPHERE AND REGULATIONS STILL PRETTY INTENSE? AND WHY HAWAII INSTEAD OF ON THE MAINLAND?
POLLOCK: Going to Hawaii was great. Things were much more relaxed and conducive to producing art. I really don't know why Hawaii was chosen, probably to save the Army some money, it was closer to Vietnam.
In Vietnam we were not over regulated. Our team of artists were allowed freedom to move and do what we wanted. We had open travel orders and for the most part were not bothered by regulations.
-End JP Interview 01-980313-